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  1. #1
    Champion of Youth Rights Crazed123 is on a distinguished road Crazed123's Avatar
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    Social Contract

    I suppose this goes in this forum.

    What do you think about the concept of a Social Contract in relation to youth rights? The issue is that we aren't given the vote, don't choose to enter any social contract, and yet the laws are enforced upon us.

    I think this is unjust. They must either give us an optional social contract and the right to vote or let us live and die by the force we can muster ourselves, as barbarians if necessary. If they won't grant us equal rights under their contract, then we shouldn't be governed by its obligations and should be able to do whatever we damn well want (and get beat up or killed for it) until we do enter the Contract.
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    Youth Rights Deity Former Board Member Fabuluke has much to be proud of Fabuluke has much to be proud of Fabuluke has much to be proud of Fabuluke has much to be proud of Fabuluke has much to be proud of Fabuluke has much to be proud of Fabuluke has much to be proud of Fabuluke has much to be proud of Fabuluke has much to be proud of Fabuluke's Avatar
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    That's an interesting way of dealing with the lack of youth rights. Is it possible that you could expound on what you have written? I believe that it would make an excellent essay.
    I was dead, but I'm alive again, I think.

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    Champion of Youth Rights Crazed123 is on a distinguished road Crazed123's Avatar
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    Yeah, sure. I've read a good part of Russeau's "The Social Contract", so now I need to find John Locke, seeing as our country is more founded upon him than Russeau.
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    Youth Rights Deity Former Board Member Fabuluke has much to be proud of Fabuluke has much to be proud of Fabuluke has much to be proud of Fabuluke has much to be proud of Fabuluke has much to be proud of Fabuluke has much to be proud of Fabuluke has much to be proud of Fabuluke has much to be proud of Fabuluke has much to be proud of Fabuluke's Avatar
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    Awesome! I look forward to seeing it.
    I was dead, but I'm alive again, I think.

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    Youth Rights Deity Board Member KPalicz has a reputation beyond repute KPalicz has a reputation beyond repute KPalicz has a reputation beyond repute KPalicz has a reputation beyond repute KPalicz has a reputation beyond repute KPalicz has a reputation beyond repute KPalicz has a reputation beyond repute KPalicz has a reputation beyond repute KPalicz has a reputation beyond repute KPalicz has a reputation beyond repute KPalicz has a reputation beyond repute KPalicz's Avatar
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    Crazed, Locke does specifically mention youth and their role (or lack thereof) in his social contract theory. It is in.................Chapter VI of his Second Treatise on Civil Government. Gimmie a sec to read it.

    I've been meaning to take a look at it in a while. I'd love to see a youth rights critique. Perhaps a few.
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    Champion of Youth Rights Crazed123 is on a distinguished road Crazed123's Avatar
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    Read a web copy. Locke gives parents ultimate authority over children, but it would seem no control over their governmental affairs. In fact, he exempts children from government and places them nearly in the state of nature excepting their parents' authority.
    Last edited by Crazed123; May 6th, 2005 at 03:21 PM.
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    I wrote it anyway, based on a bit of reading in the Second Treatise on Civil Government today. Here's the second draft:

    Quote Originally Posted by Eli Gottlieb
    By, For, and Of: An essay concerning government by trust and the philosophical justification of young people's rights in the United States of America
    by Eli Gottlieb, June 1st 2005

    Government by, for and of the people is the principle that this republic (If for the moment we may call it that and it remains so.) and all other modern republics and democracies were founded upon. In theory it means that the people govern for themselves. In practice it means that government is the responsibility of elected officials who are chosen by voters periodically from a field of candidates. In addition, every person is supposed to be guaranteed certain basic rights. Finally and most importantly, this and all governments are supposed to arise from the mechanism of social contract.

    It is reasonable fact that as far as theory goes there can only be a less than ideal social contract because of the way the contract is created. John Locke himself admitted that few, if any, men since Cain and Able have existed in the State of Nature which people leave by creating the social contract. These people, few they may have been, created the social contract because they desired law and order more than they desired unlimited anarchic liberty and government was the best way to obtain that law and order. The contract for a rebublic supposedly states that the people give the government authority to govern on the basis that the people gain authority to periodically appoint the government. This is less than the ideal social contract of government changing on the dime to suit the people's wants, but suits the real world just fine.

    What then, are the practical implications of this contract? The basis of the modern American social contract is the vote. Through it Americans exercise their sovereignty as a people to decide who will govern them in the positions created by the numerous levels of constitutions. When these officials, legislators and executives are elected they are able to create bureaucracies, collect taxes, make other laws, and maintain a police force to enforce laws important enough that breaking them is deemed a criminal offense. In some places judges are elected as well and judge all legal disputes brought before their courts.

    Dirtying this happy state of affairs is absolutism rearing its head once again in the form of legally enforced ageism. While in most states of our Union even an ex-felon is allowed their social contract right to vote, all people under the age of eighteen are governed without the right to vote. They are considered the chattels of their parents or state appointed guardians with no rights beyond that to live safely and receive the state's version of an education. They are not given Locke's natural rights of life, liberty and property, nor are they given the social contract the rest of the nation is: that allowing the government to govern gives them the authority to vote and therefore govern the government.

    So what is their social contract? In a country of government by, for and of the people how does a disenfranchised minority group fit in?

    What the law tells us is that the situation of young people is this: government by elected officials over the voting age, of voters above the voting age, for young people under the age of majority. Adults over the voting and candidacy ages govern for the sake of what they think young people need. The governed young people are left with no legal recourse whatsoever, no channel to speak their actual needs and desires except through guardians who have every option to not pay any attention at all.

    As in the monarchies of old perversions of interest have inevitably occurred. A school system has been brought about and foist upon young people's backs which purposely inculcates obediance and destroys the innate love of learning present in most children. This information comes from none other than John Taylor Gatto, an award-winning ex-schoolteacher. Curfews and parental custody restrict young people's movements around their own homes and hometowns. They are routinely denied the rights of fair trial people over the age of majority take for granted in our society. They can be put in medical or psychiatric treatment by parental consent alone, against their will, or wisked off to an abusive gulag school by night. Even young people's monies, investments and material possessions are controlled by parents and guardians in the name of those same young people, sometimes with the result of guardians stealing or squandering their children's goods and never being held responsible. Can it be called in the child's best interests to invest all of their money in an unstable stock market? That has happened to some as a result of young people being governed as trusts with their parents as the trustees.

    This is surely a grave list of offenses. It would most definitely seem that the current system of government by adults, for youth and of adults not only allows abuses, but fosters them. In the name of preserving their Life the Liberty and Property of young people are confiscated. It is those rights, Life, Liberty and Property that the social contract is established to uphold, and therefore if those rights are violated and destroyed the people have the right to reconstitute the social contract and government until their grievances are addressed.

    It is then determined that unless they are given a proper social contract that upholds their rights young people become as oppressed as the subjects of a king. Government by the people, of the people and for the people is the only regime that can be tolerated in any nation that wishes to call itself a democracy or republic. It has already been established that the fundamental right of a democratic or republican social contract is that of voting, and so young people need the right to vote before all their other rights.

    Once the vote is granted all other rights will surely follow from there as young people exert more influence in government. First will come the lowering of the voting age, the candidacy ages should be next, and others until finally age limits are abolished and a truly reasonable and just social contract based government is established for young people as well as old.
    Bruchim ha'baim l'artzeinu. Dabru Anglit!

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    Champion of Youth Rights Gwen is on a distinguished road Gwen's Avatar
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    Wow, that's a really good essay! Amazing. It deserves ten thumbs-up smilies.
    Now all you need to do is write a declaration of independence, get it signed by at least two-thirds of the countries' states, and we'll be set.
    -Gwen.
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    They'd have commercials that said: "Got PADD problems? KOTEX fits. PERIOD."

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    Champion of Youth Rights Crazed123 is on a distinguished road Crazed123's Avatar
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    I'm humbled. :Takes a bow:

    And yeah, that whole secession thing is one of my few problems with Social Contract Theory: there's no way for anyone to opt out. Russeau can have his "general will", but if we're going to call it a contract it should actually be one.

    Alex, what do you say we put this essay in the Library?

    [edit]Now I've got a spelling and grammar checked version on my hard drive. Please do not complain that I missed about 3 or 4 spellings and 1 base tense of a modal verb. If anybody would care to tell me how this base tense of a modal verb might be fixed, please go ahead.[/edit]
    Last edited by Crazed123; June 1st, 2005 at 06:33 PM.
    Bruchim ha'baim l'artzeinu. Dabru Anglit!

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    Champion of Youth Rights Gwen is on a distinguished road Gwen's Avatar
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    Which one is that?
    Chickenhawk and StoptheMADDness can lead a counter-organization to PADD called Kill Or Terroriz/se Extremist Xtremists. "Padd-Extremist-Ridding Independent Organiz/sation: Donate!" would be their motto, attempting to get people to donate to them.
    They'd have commercials that said: "Got PADD problems? KOTEX fits. PERIOD."

  11. #11
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    When it says "First will come" the "will" is called a modal verb by my grammar checker. Thing assumes I've taken grammar classes, which unfortunately aren't even taught around here.

    D'oh! I've got a book on that somewhere. Let me look it up.

    Funny, it doesn't say anything about future moods of helping verb "is".
    Last edited by Crazed123; June 1st, 2005 at 06:48 PM.
    Bruchim ha'baim l'artzeinu. Dabru Anglit!

    The Quill Times of Doom - A newspaper/Onion/blog/general publishing venue thingy.

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    Champion of Youth Rights Rory is just really nice Rory is just really nice Rory is just really nice Rory is just really nice Rory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed123
    When it says "First will come" the "will" is called a modal verb by my grammar checker. Thing assumes I've taken grammar classes, which unfortunately aren't even taught around here.

    D'oh! I've got a book on that somewhere. Let me look it up.
    I saw some other problems in there, but I thought that one was right

  13. #13
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    Yeah, there are misspellings I've only corrected in my private copy. Whatever. What would really be helpful is if somebody (ie: you please) could check for clarity and logic. I know we mostly agree the voting age needs to go down, but this essay is meant to justify that, and so needs a logical basis that doesn't assume its conclusion.
    Last edited by Crazed123; June 1st, 2005 at 08:33 PM.
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    The Quill Times of Doom - A newspaper/Onion/blog/general publishing venue thingy.

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    By, For, and Of: An essay concerning government by trust and the philosophical justification of young people's rights in the United States of America
    by Eli Gottlieb, June 1st 2005

    Government by, for, and of the people is the principle that this republic (If for the moment we may call it that and it remains so.) and all other modern republics and democracies were founded upon. In theory it means that the people govern for themselves. In practice it means that government is the responsibility of elected officials who are chosen by voters periodically from a field of candidates. In addition, every person is supposed to be guaranteed certain basic rights. Finally and most importantly, this and all governments are supposed to arise from the mechanism of social contract.

    It is a reasonable fact that as far as theory goes there can only be a less than ideal social contract because of the way the contract is created. John Locke himself admitted that few, if any, men since Cain and Abel have existed in the State of Nature which people leave by creating the social contract. These people, few they may have been, created the social contract because they desired law and order more than they desired unlimited anarchic liberty and government was the best way to obtain that law and order. The contract for a republic supposedly states that the people give the government authority to govern on the basis that the people gain authority to periodically appoint the government. This is less than the ideal social contract of government changing on a dime to suit the people's wants, but it suits the real world just fine.

    What then, are the practical implications of this contract? The basis of the modern American social contract is the vote. Through it Americans exercise their sovereignty as a people to decide who will govern them in the positions created by the numerous levels of constitutions. When these officials, legislators and executives are elected they are able to create bureaucracies, collect taxes, make other laws, and maintain a police force to enforce laws important enough that breaking them is deemed a criminal offense. In some places judges are elected as well and judge all legal disputes brought before their courts.

    Dirtying this happy state of affairs is absolutism rearing its head once again in the form of legally enforced ageism. While in most states of our Union even an ex-felon is allowed their social contractual right to vote, all people under the age of eighteen are governed without the right to vote. They are considered the chattels of their parents or state appointed guardians with no rights beyond that to live safely and receive the state's version of an education. They are not given Locke's natural rights of Life, Liberty and Property, nor are they given the social contract the rest of the nation is: that allowing the government to govern gives them the authority to vote and therefore govern the government.

    So what is their social contract? In a country of government by, for and of the people how does a disenfranchised minority group fit in?

    What the law tells us is that the situation of young people is this: government by elected officials over the voting age, of voters above the voting age, for young people under the age of majority. Adults over the voting and candidacy ages govern for the sake of what they think young people need. The governed young people are left with no legal recourse whatsoever, no channel to speak their actual needs and desires except through guardians who have every option to not pay any attention at all.

    As in the monarchies of old, perversions of interest have inevitably occurred. A school system has been brought about and foist upon young people's backs which purposely inculcates obedience and destroys the innate love of learning present in most children. This information comes from none other than John Taylor Gatto, an award-winning ex-schoolteacher. Curfews and parental custody restrict young people's movements around their own homes and hometowns. They are routinely denied the right of a fair trial people over the age of majority take for granted in our society. They can be put in medical or psychiatric treatment by parental consent alone, against their will, or wisked off to an abusive gulag school by night. Even young people's monies, investments and material possessions are controlled by parents and guardians in the name of those same young people, sometimes with the result of guardians stealing or squandering their children's goods and never being held responsible. Can it be called in the child's best interests to invest all of their money in an unstable stock market? That has happened to some as a result of young people being governed as trusts with their parents as the trustees.

    This is surely a grave list of offenses. It would most definitely seem that the current system of government by adults, for youth and of adults not only allows abuses, but fosters them. In the name of preserving their Life the Liberty and Property of young people are confiscated. It is those rights, Life, Liberty and Property that the social contract is established to uphold, and therefore if those rights are violated and destroyed the people have the right to reconstitute the social contract and government until their grievances are addressed.

    It is then determined that unless they are given a proper social contract that upholds their rights young people become as oppressed as the subjects of a king. Government by the people, of the people and for the people is the only regime that can be tolerated in any nation that wishes to call itself a democracy or republic. It has already been established that the fundamental right of a democratic or republican social contract is that of voting, and so young people need the right to vote before all their other rights.

    Once the vote is granted all other rights will surely follow from there as young people exert more influence in government. First will come the lowering of the voting age, the candidacy ages should be next, and others until finally age limits are abolished and a truly reasonable and just social contract based government is established for young people as well as old.



    Fixed what I could see, if anyone else sees something incorrect feel free to help me out. I do suggest capitalizing all the "social contracts," too. All in all, amazing job
    Last edited by Rory; June 1st, 2005 at 07:20 PM.

  15. #15
    Champion of Youth Rights Crazed123 is on a distinguished road Crazed123's Avatar
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    Got it all, thanks a ton.

    I really should print this somewhere.
    Bruchim ha'baim l'artzeinu. Dabru Anglit!

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    Champion of Youth Rights Gwen is on a distinguished road Gwen's Avatar
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    >Government by, for, and of the people is the principle that this republic (if for the moment we may call it that and it remains so)

    Just a simple grammatical error.

    >They are considered the chattels of their parents or state-appointed guardians with no rights beyond that to live safely and to receive the state's version of an education. They are not given Locke's natural rights of Life, Liberty and Property,

    They are granted life, if not liberty or property.

    >What the law tells us is that the situation of young people is this: government by elected officials over the voting age, of voters above the voting age, for young people under the age of majority.

    The government, while also regulating the lives of those under the voting age, also regulates the lives over... I don't know how you could change this without losing the rhetorical impact, though.

    >As in the monarchies of old, perversions of interest have inevitably occurred. A school system has been brought about and foist upon young people's backs which purposely inculcates obedience and destroys the innate love of learning present in most children. This information comes from none other than John Taylor Gatto, an award-winning ex-schoolteacher.

    I'd say that this information also comes from other sources, like common sense... if you had a good quote from him it'd be great.

    >Curfews and parental custody restrict young people's movements around their own homes and hometowns. They are routinely denied the right of a fair trial people over the age of majority take for granted in our society.

    Are you going for the "school officials and parents and guardians can set the rules, decide a young person's guilt in breaking these rules and punish the young person without any legal authority or due process whatsoever" idea or the fact that "young people may be tried in a court of law without a jury of their peers, due to the fact that they are not considered responsible enough to sit on a jury yet are still considered responsible enough to be punished for criminal actions as an adult would"? Elaborate.

    >They can be put in medical or psychiatric treatment by parental consent alone, against their will, or wisked off to an abusive gulag school by night. Even young people's monies, investments and material possessions are controlled by parents and guardians in the name of those same young people, sometimes with the result of guardians stealing or squandering their children's goods and never being held responsible.

    I read an article on parents who open credit cards in their kid's name and then max out, never paying the balance back or even telling the kid, so that when they apply for their "first" credit card, they have such a bad rating that they can't get one. It's not legal but a lot don't want to press charges. Some parents are so far into debt that they think they have no other choice and that they'll pay it back right away... then have the same problem they had before. Someone posted a link to it; I'll try to find it for you.

    >This is surely a grave list of offenses. It would most definitely seem that the current system of government by adults, for youth and of adults not only allows abuses, but fosters them. In the name of preserving their Life the Liberty and Property of young people are confiscated. It is those rights, Life, Liberty and Property that the social contract is established to uphold, and therefore if those rights are violated and destroyed the people have the right to reconstitute the social contract and government until their grievances are addressed.

    It is then determined that unless they are given a proper social contract that upholds their rights young people become as oppressed as the subjects of a king.

    Monarchies have and still do work... mostly because it's just a representative democracy in disguise. Maybe a better example of oppression would be slavery or previous oppressions of racial minorities and women.

    >Government by the people, of the people and for the people is the only regime that can be tolerated in any nation that wishes to call itself a democracy or republic. It has already been established that the fundamental right of a democratic or republican social contract is that of voting, and so young people need the right to vote before all their other rights.

    >Once the vote is granted all other rights will surely follow from there as young people exert more influence in government. First will come the lowering of the voting age, the candidacy ages should be next, and others until finally age limits are abolished and a truly reasonable and just social contract based government is established for young people as well as old.

    Keep in mind that many minority groups have the vote and it's still a struggle to get rights. But I agree that the vote would definitely help matters.
    Okay, those are all the suggestions I could think of. It's still great!
    -Gwen.
    Chickenhawk and StoptheMADDness can lead a counter-organization to PADD called Kill Or Terroriz/se Extremist Xtremists. "Padd-Extremist-Ridding Independent Organiz/sation: Donate!" would be their motto, attempting to get people to donate to them.
    They'd have commercials that said: "Got PADD problems? KOTEX fits. PERIOD."

  17. #17
    Champion of Youth Rights Crazed123 is on a distinguished road Crazed123's Avatar
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    Thanks a ton!
    Bruchim ha'baim l'artzeinu. Dabru Anglit!

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    Champion of Youth Rights Gwen is on a distinguished road Gwen's Avatar
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    You're very welcome. (That's how you spend your time when you're a better editor than writer.)
    -Gwen.
    Chickenhawk and StoptheMADDness can lead a counter-organization to PADD called Kill Or Terroriz/se Extremist Xtremists. "Padd-Extremist-Ridding Independent Organiz/sation: Donate!" would be their motto, attempting to get people to donate to them.
    They'd have commercials that said: "Got PADD problems? KOTEX fits. PERIOD."

  19. #19
    Youth Rights Deity Former Board Member Fabuluke has much to be proud of Fabuluke has much to be proud of Fabuluke has much to be proud of Fabuluke has much to be proud of Fabuluke has much to be proud of Fabuluke has much to be proud of Fabuluke has much to be proud of Fabuluke has much to be proud of Fabuluke has much to be proud of Fabuluke's Avatar
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    That's really sweet of you for you to do that for him... I didn't have the time... I tend to write things out better than I edit them -- when I'm feeling intelligent, not intelajent, that is. Right now, I'm feeling intelajent.
    I was dead, but I'm alive again, I think.

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